A question...

[JosiahM]

Hello all..

I have a question, perhaps someone might be able to answer..
There is a sound clip on Steve's site with vinnie explaining the groove to Seven Days.. he says it's in 5.. 2 and 3.
now, i've heard of the idea and understand conceptually how groups of 2's and 3's work.. everythign is a combonation of a groupd of 2 beats, 3 beats or a combonation of the 2.

However, I've always been taught, even at MI, to simply count.. 5.. 6.. 7 or whatever, simply keeping track of the 1.
The idea and concept of 2's and 3's seems much more practical and conceptually, more applicable.

So my question is, could somone, explain it perhaps a little more in depth and/or give me some pointers on how to intergrate that system into my playing (as aposed to straight counting) or some exceresises for using such a system in my playing?

Thanks!
Josiah

[Nikk]

Your acceptance and realization that 5/4 or 5/8 time is most effectively grouped into 2s and 3s is half the battle, concerning its integration into your thought processes and playing. You'd benefit most from seeing the concept applied in practical, musical situations. I suggest you transcribe Vinnie's playing on Seven Days, seeing as how this is the tune you used as an example. As you transcribe his part, you'll begin to see this idea of twos and threes manifested in a very musical situation. You'll develop your own "exercises" for this concept based on what you hear Vinnie play. So, never mind exercises. Why not apply the concept to a musical situation? I know it's annoying that you can't instantly and completely integrate this into your playing. But you really will gain the most rewards from transcribing, man. It takes time, but it's worth it. Actually, this tune got transcribed in a fairly recent MD back issue, not sure which one. Check it out, though, if you can.

[JosiahM]

Hey thanks..

Haha.. interestinglly enough, i've never actually transcribed anything.. I'm not even sure where or how to start.. I'm assuming, simply starting with a given part ie: bass drum, hi-hat, snare, is the best way..

Winamp will come in handy for this I'm sure.. I'll get started tonight though.

thanks again

[chris perra]

there's a great program out there called recycle that you can load in a mp3 cut it up into smaller sections and then speed it up and slow it down without loosing the actual tonal quality, it's a bit tricky to get a handle on at first, but it's great for transcriptions.

[Derek DeFields]

another way to think of odd times might be to try and phrase like you would in 4 plus a couple notes. for example, Keep It Greasey could would be 4/4 with 3 16ths at the end. I also think it's easier to think in groups of 4's and 3's when possible. Phrasing over larger groups always sounds more natural and is the precursor to playing across bar lines.

If you can phrase freely over the 4 and "tag" 3 notes onto the end you can start to get comfortable with odd times. The more you do it, the more free you can get.

7 days is an interesting example because the 1/4 note is really what ties that whole groove together IMO. St. Augustine from TST is a more obvious example of that but much of Vinnie's odd phrasing appears to be based around this idea. (Zildjian day with Tim Landers for example)

[drum4fun]

Josiah,

The transcription of "Seven Days" can be found in the July 2000 issue of Modern Drummer on page 110. The transcription of "Keep It Greasy" can be found in the October 2000 issue of Modern Drummer on page 136. If you need a copy of these articles, you can drop me an e-mail at [email protected].

[numeroUnoHODfan]

Winamp's also got a plug-in similar to what Chris Perra mentioned, allowing you to slow down or speed up entire mp3's without losing the tonal quality... I've tried it and it was pretty easy to use. Good luck.

[XNavyDrummer]

hmmmm....the 3, 2 thing...

I spent a lot of time playing Middle Eastern music with a brilliant Armenian oudist. I initially studied and performed the music on dombek and switched over to the drum set. My approach initially was just to ram eighth notes down everyone?s throat so playing in 5 using the 3, 2 format became boom tap tap boom tap etc. etc. it sounded like a machine but it helped me keep track of where one was.

I gigged also with a Yugoslavian guitarist. He would play songs in 25/8, 27/16 basically anything he wanted. He told me to approach the groups of 3's as an eighth note, eighth rest, eighth note type of feel. So, whenever I played some odd time signature, for example, an Armenian 10/8 (using 3,2,2,3) the 2s are played as two eighth notes but for each group of 3s you rest during the middle of the three eighth notes. This set up a much more relaxed and musical feel. (For really fast tunes, you might switch the groups of 2s to a quarter note instead of two eighth notes.)

For you older guys, I even did one of these Middle Eastern gigs with Milcho Laviev (keyboardist with the band Freeflight) who played with the Don Ellis big band. He arranged the Bulgarian Bulge chart in 33/16 for the band. Simon Phillips talks about this chart in one of his videos.

Also, when I played with a Greek band at Tom Hank's wedding to Rita Wilson we played a lot of odd time stuff. It's a trip watching people dance in seven!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 20, 2003 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Andy Vermiglio ]</font>

[JosiahM]

hey guys thanks for the responese.. good thing i got back issues for MD through 98.. though i want to transcribe it on my own.. i might take a cheater look or two though..